WARNING: This page is NOT the fantasy-fest that some hack sellers think buyers care about. We are tired of seeing unwanted & irrelevant matrix info quoted as "something rare" when no-one really cares & this page explains why! If the deep facts of this really does interest you, then perhaps you best not read on as the Truth is here and we may just spoil it for you...
THE TRUTH ABOUT LACQUER, MOTHER & STAMPER CODES.
The cold fact is Stamper codes being quoted as 'Important Info' is just silly amateurish & usually incorrect hype selling by amateurs which is used to try to get you to pay more for nothing! In terms of collecting, they are in the majority, of no added value or worth on any record to any sane buyer who isn't an extreme completist! Only BEATLES collectors may find interest in this minutae, but no other Artist has collectors who are the slightest bit interested. There is a tiresome Elvis book listing 20+ variations of his HMV All Shook Up & are there collectors wanting 20 copies of the same record with tiny differences? NOT ON THIS PLANET, MATE! Only when clear PRICE DIFFERENCES occur will it be seen to matter. Does RC guide price up all the variations of Elvis & Beatles 45s? They do to a degree with Beatles & some DO make a premium price, but they must be GENUINELY RARE, not silly hype rare, but pretty much unfindable. Even RC over-complicate what they think buyers are interested in.
We've yet to hear about a buyer not wanting to buy a Rolling Stones 45 with 4C instead of 1C, or a Beatles buyer not wanting a 1N as they heard a 1C might exist (it doesn't). You are reading a page about debunking the myth that ANYONE cares about Matrix & Stamper codes apart from the few times it matters when a different mix or recording exists. We have heard of cloud-dwelling buyers bypassing a NM 1954 UK single so they can buy a Mint one instead... wonder if he found it yet?
JUST 3 OF THOSE EXIST THAT DO MATTER
Small Faces Mind's Eye alt mixes 1C is the rougher mix & 2C is the intended hit mix. The 1C was issued first as most copies found are NOC or in low grade. Animals Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood 2N is the proper hit release & 1N was a less good alternate take version that got issued by mistake midway thru sales. These both used to sell for a premium but more are around than first thought & actual selling prices now are only a little higher than the regular versions. The 3rd is the "Long Mix" of Tomorrow Never Knows on the Beatles LP "Revolver" but that is the version used on the CD! As an extra about The Animals, the UK & USA versions of "We've Gotta Get Out Of This Place" are entirely different takes. The LP market is rife with this matrix rubbish info & sadly it's creeping into 45s to. We only deal in 45s so there may be more reasons for matrix numbers denoting alternate versions in LPs, but we suspect it's the same old BS trying to get premium prices for misinformation to the unknowing!
The only true & reliable way of telling of pressing "earliness" is the letter/number stamped at 3 o'clock to the matrix (at 6 o'clock usually), the GRAMOPHONE (GRAMOPHLTD) or BUCKINGHAM codes. The ''JR'' or ''G'' EMI pressing or ''B'' Decca pressings are likely the First Ever Pressings, but be aware ERRORS EXIST on these stamper letters & you'll sometimes find NO CODE stamped (found on 1956-58 Decca) or even EMI with "JR" misprinted as "JJ". Most people gladly don't care about such pointless minutae & are glad to get the first LABEL issue as was bought at the time!
Lacquer codes are with the matrix number, and as 1983 Beatles 45s show they can last 20 years. Mother codes are at 3 o'clock position, but change less regularly & like any record codes can have errors or A and B side usually don't match. The Stamper codes, the GRAMOPHLTD or BUCKINGHAM codes are the ones that change most. Philips pressings add extra numbers after the matrix, lines of 1111 or similar, anyone dare to explain that? Pye add a 1 in the deadwax & likely other companies did too. Many didn't bother, eg Orlake pressings. It would be interesting to know how many copies the Stampers made before being replaced, there are only a certain amount of the first print Decca B, or EMI G or JR that were made. Usually these were Demo copies made before the issues.
Some big selling records may have different ending lacquer codes ie 1C or 3C on a Rolling Stones 45, it's all terribly exciting, eh? You all think 1C is the first naturally. But think how many were pressed in the first 2 months of sales on many different pressing machines at the pressing plants at the same time. It's all nonsense trying to make you pay more for nothing. Find a Beatles 1963 hit on the 1st label design as will be carefully pointed out elsewhere. Then find the same song as the 1976 reissue and you'll often see the basic metalwork is identical!
BUT NO BUYER CARES about "earliest matrix" & then the amateur quotes "1C" numbers at you. NO BUYER CARES about Tax Codes stamped on centres.
But read on & understand why they exist and can be useful solely for research into finding what came first in LABEL & CENTRE styles, as our London pages show...
The variations in label that you CAN SEE without an eyeglass are those that do matter & not just on Beatles 45s. Having a likely million-selling Beatles 45 with 'GOD' codes is a funny one, and we got a Tenner for it just to test the market! The 'GOD' code means it's the 160th pressing if you consider the 'G' to be the first. It's really daft though, do you really want to buy the 159 pressings made before it? No, see it's too far into it.
Proof of Record Companies pressing Records just as they came, not the EXACT PRECISE ART some foolishly believe all this Stamper Code mess is. BEATLES Parlophone R5389 We Can Work It Out/Day Tripper. Big hit, 2 classic songs as AA side. Now SEVERAL TIMES, meaning it's pretty COMMON, we've had the MULE of label styles. Huge £££ Rarity??? NO!!! ''WE'' with PARL CO label edge wording & ''DAY'' with GRAM CO label edge wording. It may exist the other way too, though we've not kept track, only the basic Mule idea. All these stating exact dates that things changed ARE EXTREMELY WRONG!!! You see all the Beatles 45 Company sleeve BS saying that exactly that sleeve came with that 45. WRONG!!!! The type may have been the typical type of sleeve at the time, but as we've found untouched unplayed Mint 45s, this is often proved wrong. You can find late 1950s sleeves on 1965 records. WHY??? Simply as these things were made & they weren't going to just throw them away as an old design. They might have found an old cache forgotten about & used them as why not? Elvis 1st HMV 78 comes with the Blue Label, but a Ronnie Hilton hit with a later number still has the old dark red label. Does this mean Elvis should exist with the Red Label? NO!!! It meant the records that were expected to sell got the newer design & the ones expected to sell less got the old paper stock used up. There is a quote from the early 60s we read stating exactly this fact.
One arrogant but ill-informed ebayer who appears to get a huge premium for ordinary records and even 3rd pressings as he so strongly declares them to be 1st pressings quotes more incorrect facts by the score. His latest one is to state all EMI group demos can only have a "G" GRAMPHONLTD code. Now we've known for decades that "JR" can be on a demo as the 1986 Vintage 1950s picture book guide confirms & we've seen countless times since. Also you can find the odd demo with an "R" and certain records like Darrell Banks which actually had 3 Stateside demos (ignoring the London one), red-White 1966, Green 1968 & Green 1970 & these later demos will naturally have later codes.
It's Growing! An amount of amateur sellers are now quoting matrix numbers on any record, hoping there are sad buyers out there who want these. It's a bit like the early 80s with Record collector, go find some early copies & silly sellers used to quote the matrix number not the catalog number! Rare First Pressing with 1C, 1N, 1F, 1N, 1IDIOT... who cares. The first pressing of a hit sold the most copies so is the most common!
HIT RECORDS WITH 1C 1N etc are NOT RARE FIRST PRESSINGS!
Hit records sold IN THOUSANDS to even a MILLION copies in their first few weeks of sale! How can they be anything other than the most COMMON version of the product unless something OBVIOUS shows them apart? Only obvious changes like Gold print, Tri Centres or even Beatles EMI Upper-Lower case Parlophone edge wording & Sold In UK legends are OBVIOUS differences. Irrelevant stamper codes are NOT IMPORTANT is the message we are saying over again.
"...Surely a Stones hit with 4C or even a newly-seen 5C are so much rarer and worth so much more..."
All this BS hype must actually put buyers off.
Confused by a huge amount of unnecessary information making what used to be pretty straightforward into a minefield of pointless facts. The Coin market slumped badly for decades after too many variations spoiled things, those not buying records for the music may well cause that market to die off too, not that music buyers and variety buyers are the same thankfully. We saw one tiresome BS artist absolutely wetting themself with excitement saying their 1C Beatles was one of the first 300 pressed! Total rubbish of course, you can only count "age" by the GRAMPOHLTD and BUCKINGHAM codes & 2000-3000 of each will exist, based on what 1964 Beatles million sellers have as codes. The 1976 press of said 45 still had 1C, a million sales later! Does anyone really care about these codes in the real world?? NO.
STAMPER CODES CAN TELL THE FIRST PRESSING? There are 2 important first issues, one better known than the other. The first is The Beatles "All You Need Is Love" without the TV reference. We've had a few copies and it is RARE in terms of Beatles, but remember this was a massive hit spending 3 weeks at Number One where it may have sold a million copies in the year after being released, it's not rare as the with-TV version, though high grade copies are as such a great 45 was played a lot. Early No TV copies usually had a push out centre & were the more 1966 type thicker vinyl, but as you can see elsewhere online, there are plenty of solid centre ones too. Our opinion on being asked about these is the push out ones were the earliest and as they printed so many labels with the "error" & it'd be expensive to bin them, they just used them up later. Is it even an error? In those days film & show tunes got a credit, but a TV related release was a new thing, maybe they only thought to add the TV bit slightly later on?
The next one is one we've been buying for a while now & buyers are finally realising the item is important: Jimi Hendrix "Hey Joe"/"Stone Free" on Polydor. There are several pressings of this: two have "No Experience" on the credit, then there is the JHE one with a push out centre & then a solid centre one. The interesting "No Experience" one has been rubbished by a total BS dealer mentioned elsewhere. But we know a lot more than you, sonny: Dark Red with black Polydor was a short-lived design used for only a very short time. They started randomly in Oct 1966 & by Dec 1966 it was all over & the JH one on Polydor 56139 appears to be the last number to have dark red, unless others appear. You can see elsewhere online a handwritten date promo has the dark red label & we've seen one similar too. In Dec 1966 Polydor couldn't have expected many sales & they'd been issuing good but unselling 45s for years with no chart success. The more orange-red label with white Polydor echoed the JH credit, but most copies you see have the full JHE credit as he wanted to be billed as. In our Experience (pun intended) the JHE is a common record if not in NM or better. The orangey-red JH no Exp credit one is about 15-20 times rarer. The Red-black JH one is again about 10 times rarer than the orangey JH one. The JH no Exp on Dark Red is a very rare item therefore. We're not going to guess all Dark Red were sent out as Promos & the DJ etc added the date on or something. We see the Dark Red one as being very rare & for an artist like JH the price of £45 for an EX orangey-red JH no Exp is right, though to price the Dark Red will happen when we get another copy! Another point is these earliest copies are hard to find in nice grade usually as they were the ones that established the record by DJs & promoters. We've been watching the stamper codes, in the rare chance it actually matters: one we have has *P* 56139 A//1 1 2 showing that more of the JH on orangey-red were made beyond the initial press, but considering it was a big hit, our current estimation (based on items seen, not 100% fact) is less than 1% are red-black, 5-8% are orangey-red & the rest are JHE credits.
TAX CODES exist on records as paper stamps going back to the early 78s, embossed into the centres of EMI product & Decca used them amid the matrix lettering. An Elvis 1963 press of a 1959 EP has a confusing line of letters... BG H MT KT over 4 lines. "BG" is the BUCKINGHAM code, H is a letter often used by Decca, maybe for "Home" as "HL" on London means "Home London". MT and KT were the Tax Codes used at the time. One Ebay page tells you the age of these Tax Codes, all very interesting perhaps, but you can imagine it's full of errors in use & weren't updated on the day. You can find this info on an ebay HERE but to us it is of no importance though you'll find people trying to make out it is important. As dealers we see people only care about CLEAR LABEL VARIATIONS & do not avoid buying or especially choose to buy the minor variants. We list some to see what the market thinks, such as typeface big or small, or solid or pronged centres. The sales on these show only high grade clean label 45s are the ones more popular regardless of variant.
HERE IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF IDIOTS GUESSING & MAKING A FUSS ABOUT MISINFORMATION!
Nina Simone,' I Put a Spell On You' Philips 1415..."VERY RARE 1ST AND EARLIEST POSSIBLE PRESSING ON SIDE 2//1 AND //1 MATRICES WITH '1 1 7' / '1 1 1' STAMPERS ON SIDE1/SIDE2. MADE BY POLYGRAM FROM THE 1ST CUT MASTERS, 1ST MOTHERS, 1ST POSITIVES ON BOTH SIDES. SIDE 1 USES ONLY THE 7TH STAMPER AND SIDE 2 USES THE 1ST SO EARLIEST POSSIBLE PRESSING ON THIS SIDE AND A VERY EARLY PRESS ON SIDE 1"
Now the truth. Philips used an extra 1 or further number after their 1F//1∇420. This line is neatly typed, then the 114, 117 or 118 etc is stamped in as needed. Big selling records can have a number line longer than 3 digits. Guess what, only a single with NOTHING after the 420 is the extreme first pressing & anything after you can work out it's a "later" one. Even by this idiot's own stupid idea, the 7 gives it away. Looking at a few Philips pressings, this number increments fast & a non selling duff 1972 record can have got to "113". Having to admit knowing this pointless junk sadly is needed to debunk these stupid sellers. How they haven't realised NO-ONE IS INTERESTED by the low/no sales shows what you are dealing with here. Oh yeah, and Polygram didn't exist as a name for the Philips group until 1972.
Another for a cheapo 70s Motown... 1ST PRESS. A-1/B-1 MATRICES WITH EMI '1' 'A' / '1' 'R' EARLY STAMPERS. MADE FROM THE 1ST CUT MASTER DISCS AND 1ST MOTHERS ON BOTH SIDES. SIDE1 AND 2 USE ONLY THE 3RD AND 2ND STAMPERS CONSECUTIVELY. NICE EARLY AND THEREFORE HIGH QUALITY PRESSING and another on a 70s London..."EARLIEST POSSIBLE PRESSING ON SIDE 1. ALMOST THE EARLIEST ON SIDE 2. -1C/-1C MATRICES AND '1' 'B' / '1' 'U' STAMPERS, LEFT AND RIGHT ON THE RUNOUTS OF SIDE1 / SIDE 2
MADE BY DECCA, FROM THE 1ST CUT MASTER DISCS AND 1ST MOTHERS ON BOTH SIDES. SIDE 1 USES THE 1ST STAMPER DISC AND SIDE 2 USES THE 2ND"
The tedious & inaccurate line about HIGH QUALITY PRESSING for a supposed early press is DANGEROUS BS TO BE QUOTING!!! The quality of a pressing will be known to deteriorate after xxxx amount of copies so after decades, they'd know when the stampers were used up & replace them before the tolerance levels were exceeded.
All this STAMPER CODE crap cannot disguise some records, going back to the early 50s are still POORLY MADE regardless of codes stamped with a poor vinyl flow
which exhibits as a streaky silvery-in-the-light patterning on the groove wall nearest the label, but not the outer edge groove wall! There, bet you never knew that! BUT this isn't usually a problem as the STYLUS rides the groove lower down than the top that is suffering the poor vinyl flow, read stylus-groove info sites for more. Records with a minor amount of this fault are perfectly good & play perfectly still, though some that are too bad will have been rejected by the disc factory checkers & never sold as they are faulty. In USA where vinyl quality is much lower, you often find bumps & lumps in the vinyl that affect the sound & even with 50s & 60s UK vinyl you can very occasionally find flaws. The worst UK vinyl is the RCA pressings from about 1977-81 as lots of flaws as stated elsewhere. The Polygram pressings could have awful streaks by the label from poor vinyl flow.
And there's more. One fool actually WEIGHS records to say an LP is 140g or 150g and even a 45 is 46g!! They goes on about Sleeves too, & the 60s record in a 70s sleeve tells much of their expertise. For all his pointless BS, he's on 4.7 stars for description. QED. This is the sort of CRAP that is sadly growing like a virus on ebay. Are buyers in the slightest bit interested? NO.
Amateur ebay sellers love to go on about facts they clearly know nothing about. You often see the Bluebeat Prince Buster green label 70s represses touted as 'originals' as well as 1961 round centre pressings of 1955 Slim Whitman 45s that would have been Gold Tri if 1st press.
No, the earliest pressings didn't hit the shops first!
An LP collector told us this little gem of a story & it makes sense so we'll share it with embellishments. The first records off the pressing machinery were packed into the 25 count boxes (or similar). Where did they go then? Onto a shelf or a floor of a warehouse and further boxes were added on top or in front. The pressing company would make a certain amount to get early sales and a fast chart placing in knowledge of the market for a record. A pop record that was expected to sell fairly rapidly would need say 25,000 copies minimum and the record company would press this amount to begin with. Lesser or specialist titles may only have 500 copies pressed & only more pressed if a demand from the shops showed more would sell. Known big sellers such as the fast-selling Beatles 45s in 1963-64 meant 250,000+ copies could be pressed before release. This was to be sure major shops had ample copies on the release dates. In the pre-internet days adverts in trade magazines (NME, Disc, Record Mirror & fanzines) would make buyers aware of upcoming releases, a bit like Amazon does now with DVDs etc to get pre-orders. As sales happened or didn't the companies would know whether to press more copies or not. There's the thing: a big pile of boxes of records on pallets takes up a lot of room, the earliest pressed ones would natually be the underneath ones so those very first copies with 'G', 'JR' or 'B' codes would not have gone out first. The first copies to sell of The Beatles "Please Please Me" LP would likely have been the black & yellow ones, the "oddball" black & gold ones by their rarity would possibly only have gone to shops a week or longer after release. The major sales would be in the first few weeks unless it was a sleeper or a record that grew to appeal to the full range of buyers. Common first pressing therefore is more deserved of a Beatles hit 45, though finding them in NM or better isn't easy, even NM the labels may show more spindle trails than a usual NM simply as played more often in the time a record got played most.
It's not that important at all unless it reveals a label variation to be consistently earlier, as on our GOLD LONDONS page. Stick to the LABEL TYPES if you must go deep into the Beatles collecting. Having 25 copies of 'She Loves You' with different code combinations won't impress anyone.
Please don't ask us for matrix stamper mother code info on an item, as we won't reply for reasons stated above. End of. We don't want to encourage this crap to become the norm, imagine having to squint at each 45 & type the stamper info... Sadly tedious books fit for bonfires are being written about really pointless variants on major artists & some LP labels & one we helped the guy a bit a few years ago about Contracts foolishly littered the rest of his tome with enough errors to sink it! If these minutae interest you, much about the Beatles & now even Elvis UK pressings have been done by some. Whether what they say is correct or of any value is for you to decide. We wrote several pages on this site about London stuff just to research the 50s scene.
This is not stamp collecting, though it appears to be heading that way. Sell the records and let the Buyers do as they wish with them! It used to be about buying music to play and enjoy having the article that was bought at the time. Many buyers today only care for the artifact in 'brand new' grade (despite 30-60 years of age affecting it) & never believe the 'unplayed' hype, a needle trail gives it away as played, so Mint = top grade used is our way of looking at it, even though unplayed may be true too.
